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May 08, 2009





Heh, heh...

Not bad for an old man... (now I'll go back and read the article.)

Make mine a Size L Soup! ('bout dam time... )

Let's Go Canes!


I gotchU Roach. God knows U earned one by now! Eamil me your shipping addy to:

[email protected]


Wow, CaneSawMassacre, that's a real strike to my heart. I lost my father to cancer a few years ago, (my best golfing buddy and sports foundation too.) Cancer is a horrible, wasting disease.

Quite a nice tribute... and I too believe there are definitely "signs" out there...

Your Grandfather's emails were left undeleted for a reason.

The Truth

Great write up Canesaw

I am truly sorry for your loss.


By the way... on my soapbox for just a second.

If you smoke... you need to stop... if not for yourself, for your family's sake.

My Dad was a lifelong smoker who succumbed to a combination of lung cancer, (which later spread to his brain), and emphysema. The emphysema was probably the worst of it all. It is truly horrible...

Kick that shat.

OK, I'm stepping down now...


Ask Solar or CaneSaw how he got his name?


Canesaw beautiful tribute.
I lost my dad to a long bout with emphysema when I was 19, I understand exactly where you are coming from.

Learning to savor every minute you have with the ones you love is a lesson often learned through great loss. You make me very proud of you.



watching my dad die from emphysema is the most horrifying thing I have ever witnessed.
I have never smoked in my life, not because I'm healthy but because I'm terrified.



Ask Solar or CaneSaw how he got his name?

Posted by: 86Cane | May 08, 2009 at 07:17 PM

chu...only about the sweetest Cane nick ever


Century Cane


Beautiful tribute,very sorry for your less.

I lost my grandmother to a similar situation a few years back.To this day I still remember her calling me after the Canes came back to beat Louisville in the OB as she was battling the cancer.


Ditto that Solar... unless you've seen it, and lived with it... it's just another name for a disease.

It's a slow torture for all involved...

I miss my Dad. I always keep a Maxfli Noodle teed up by his grave... he was a sweet swinger... a' la Julius Boros. (For all you old school golfers out there.)

Century Cane

Canes tied 0-0 top of the second


Solar...U got that right! And your creation too.

Next up: "Pheonix" Sunday @ 8 AM.


sorry for your loss....i just lost my grandmother 2 weeks ago...just be thankful for the times you had and that you can pass on those memories with family...

86 sorry i didnt get back with you about the tickets...i just got home from 2 loooooong days of work...glad the weekend is here


soup cool,
I have another half done.

also cutting some signs tomorrow night for a real estate company, the Canes stuff is already on the plotter ready to be cut I'll be sending you some prizes this week!!



I always keep a Maxfli Noodle teed up by his grave... he was a sweet swinger... a' la Julius Boros. (For all you old school golfers out there.)

Posted by: roachcane77 | May 08, 2009 at 07:30 PM

Sweet tribute Roach. I go by my mom's grave site in Kendall and pour out some Jameson Irish Whisky from time to time.

Then I swing by ST#26's site (same cemetary) and take a knee. I only leave after flashing the U and saying out loud:

"We Got some Canes over here..."

Century Cane

0-0 going to the bottom of the 2nd


86 sorry i didnt get back with you about the tickets...i just got home from 2 loooooong days of work...glad the weekend is here

Posted by: SlingBlade | May 08, 2009 at 07:34 PM

So are you solid for picking up the tix and T-shirt at the Titanic?

Cat 5 Cane

Sorry Sling... tough loss.

macjones de Albuquerque

Insightful, soulful take on yours, CSM!


no im not gonna make it down there tonight...but are they good for saturday too?
if they are ill take me :)


I am not to proud to say that I have read it five times and I get tears in my eyes EVERY time.

Good stuff! Thanks CSM...


Sling...YES, they are "vouchers" good for any game. The last two games are Saturday night and the Sunday season home game finale. There are two tix and a shirt awaiting U.

Century Cane

0-0 going top 3
Canes strand 2 runners in the second


ty much...i will be bringing the whole family

another great evening courtesy of canespace


another great evening courtesy of canespace

Posted by: SlingBlade | May 08, 2009 at 07:48 PM

Creating great evenings one at a time.

It is what we do here at Canespace!


Charlotte Observer

Friday, May 8, 2009
Coastal is the Hokies to lose

With three conference titles in five seasons and a 32-8 conference record, Virginia Tech has dominated the ACC since joining in 2004.

But to be clear, the Hokies did not dominate in 2008. Actually, they were lucky to win the Coastal Division, getting help from Maryland and Georgia Tech down the stretch.

Then they played their two best games of the season in the ACC title game (beating Boston College) and Orange Bowl (throttling Cincinnati).

With so many parts back, led by running back Darren Evans (pictured above) and basically everyone minus corner Macho Harris, kicker Dustin Keys and safety-valve-quarterback-slash-whipping-boy Sean Glennon, the Hokies will go off as the prohibitive favorite to repeat in the Coastal Division and as the conference champion.

Before you start believing the top-5 in the country preseason hype about VT, remember the Hokies lost three conference games for the first time in '08 and won the division on a tiebreaker (at 5-3 same as Georgia Tech).

While the Coastal was the weaker group in '08, it will be the better half of the ACC in '09. In short, it won't be a walk for the favorites.

The odds for the other five teams to knock off VT:

— Miami

The major problems with a young Miami team in 2008 were the offensive coordinator (the eternally overmatched Patrick Nix) and a senseless quarterback rotation (between Robert Marve and Jacory Harris).

Canes coach Randy Shannon fixed both flaws, by hook or by crook. Nix left shortly after the bowl loss to Cal. Marve was suspended for the bowl and then decided to transfer (he's still looking for a new home).

A year older, with a pragmatic playcaller (Mark Whipple), the Canes have a real chance to finish what they started in '08. They were 7-3, 4-2 in the ACC, and headed for the Coastal title before losing to Georgia Tech (embarrassed on national TV), at N.C. State and to Cal in a road bowl game.

Odds: 2-to-1

— Georgia Tech

Conventional wisdom says the Yellow Jackets will be improved in the second season in Paul Johnson's unique option offense. But what about the ACC defenses who have had the benefit of a season to scout Johnson's act?

Interesting to note, with a bye week to prepare, UNC stuffed Tech's running game last season. And then there was the bowl game disaster against LSU, which had a month to scout.

The offense will be better with Louisville transfer Anthony Allen supporting stud runner Jonathan Dwyer. Like N.C. State, Tech has fragility questions at quarterback (the supremely talented Josh Nesbitt) but Johnson has done a good job, in just two seasons, stockpiling system quarterbacks.

The defense has to rebuild but another 5-3 season is there for the taking.

Odds: 3-to-1


With a healthy trio of Hakeem Nicks, Brandon Tate and T.J. Yates, UNC wins the Coastal in '08 (no really). Only Yates is available in '09 and he's already hurt, playing frisbee no less.

UNC's defense will be good and Butch Davis will find new talent at receiver, just not in the class of Nicks (a first-rounder) or Tate (who was a first-rounder before the knee injury).

The schedule is too easy not to win eight games, seven at worst, but the Heels are not good enough to surpass the Hokies.

Odds: 7-to-1

— Virginia

Good move in going to the spread offense and hiring a coach (Gregg Brandon) who understands it (worked with Urban Meyer, credited creator of the popular version of it, at Bowling Green).

Good move (somehow) getting Jameel Sewell back at quarterback from the depths of academic purgatory.

Still not enough for one for a division title.

Odds: 15-to-1

— Duke

The Blue Devils could go 4-8 again and be better. That's just how the schedule sets up — easy up front and loaded down the stretch (again).

Quarterback Thad Lewis will miss receiver Eron Riley and the defense will miss linebacker Mike Tauiliili.

Not the same old Duke but still last place in the division.

Odds: 20-to-1


Century Cane

0-0 going to the bottom of the 3rd
Hernandez works out of a jam


For those of U who were not around back in April of 2008, click here:



Dolphins rename home Landshark Stadium

Miami partners with Jimmy Buffett, renaming stadium for this season only

The Dolphins Stadium will be renamed LandShark Stadium.
updated 3:40 p.m. ET, Fri., May 8, 2009

MIAMI - Jimmy Buffett stood on a stage at the Miami Dolphins’ newly renamed stadium at looked out upon his audience, a colorful sea of tropical shirts and team jerseys.

Fans of Buffett — known as Parrotheads — and fans of the team were there to hear a few tunes as the singer and Dolphins began a partnership designed to attract more people to games.

“This is very interesting,” Buffett told the crowd of about

500. “We gave half the tickets to Parrothead clubs and half the tickets to Dolfans, and you can’t tell the difference.”

Buffett and an eight-piece band played three tunes at the private concert, including a new Dolphins song he wrote to the melody of his hit “Fins.” Buffett and team owner Stephen Ross then unveiled a logo for LandShark Stadium, the new name of the Dolphins’ home. The Florida Marlins and Miami Hurricanes also play there.

Buffett’s Margaritaville enterprise includes LandShark Lager, brewed by Anheuser-Busch. Ross said the agreement to change the name from Dolphin Stadium is for this season only and expires before the stadium plays host to the Super Bowl in February.

“We’re going to be associated with Jimmy Buffett forever,” Ross said. “That’s what the important thing is.”

Ross has invited Buffett to become a minority owner and said he doesn’t know whether that will happen. Regardless, the singer will play a role in rebranding the franchise.

A Margaritaville area will be created at the stadium, with a goal of bringing Buffett’s “unique culture” to games, Ross said.

“He’s going to be featured at tailgates and things like that. We’re going to incorporate him into being part of the Miami Dolphins,” Ross said.

“Football today, with HDTV, you can sit at home. You’ve got to create an experience and a reason to come here and have a good time. It’s a blend of entertainment and winning football. We’re going to fill up those stands.”

Buffett declined interview requests but released a statement about his role with the team.

“What a cool thing to be doing, and especially at home in South Florida,” he said. “I am honored and look forward to working (not that hard) with the Dolphin organization. I just want to thank Steve for having the idea to think a little out of the box and including us in his vision of more fun for the fans. All I can add is, let the Fin begin!”

Ross, a New York real estate billionaire, completed his purchase of the Dolphins in January. Seeking ways to improve the fan experience, he approached Buffett, who is closely identified with the Florida Keys and has been a Dolphins fans since at least 1984, their most recent Super Bowl season.

Buffett watched games from the sideline back then and once invited several players on stage at a concert.

For the christening of LandShark Stadium, the audience included Dolphins coach Tony Sparano and general manager Jeff Ireland. Also on hand were at least half a dozen former players, former Miami Heat star Alonzo Mourning and former U.S. Tennis Association CEO Arlen Kantarian, an adviser to Ross.

Buffett took the stage in shorts and a polo shirt and opened with “Margaritaville,” changing a line in the first verse to “all of you Dolfans covered with oil.”

The roar when he finished rivaled a touchdown celebration.

“As somebody who drove to the Keys in a ’46 Packard about 38 years ago, this is pretty cool,” Buffett said with a lopsided grin.

His finale was the new team song, which he called “Fins for Dolfans.”

“We got fins to the left, fins to the right,” he sang. “It’s the only game in town.”

Ross said the Dolphins will keep their fight song, which dates from the team’s days in the American Football League. But the new owner clearly preferred the new tune.

“Believe me,” he said, “you’ll hear that more than once or twice when you’re at a Dolphin game


Century Cane

0-0 going to the 4th


Century...keep the updates coming. Nice job!


National Football Post

System QBs: Bad Fit For The NFL

Why do we routinely see college stars such as Texas Tech QB Graham Harrell wash out of the NFL before they even get a solid look from league personnel? They have the numbers and the resume, but I’m now in the agreement that players like Harrell are products of college systems — and that doesn’t fly in the NFL.

The Candidates

There have been others before Harrell – players like David Klingler and Andre Ware of Houston, and one of Harrell’s fellow alumni at Tech, Kliff Kingsbury.

They’re players we knew by heart in college, Heisman Trophy winners and guys who were mentioned as Heisman front-runners. They played in college systems that are designed to put up huge numbers and challenge the scoreboard operator to keep up with the action.

But they don’t stand a chance in the pros because they aren’t offered a chance.

Harrell is a perfect example. During his career at Tech, he threw for 15,793 yards and 134 TDs. You and I couldn’t do that in a video game let alone the Big 12. Last season, during Tech’s run to the top of the polls, he threw for 5,111 yards and 45 TDs to go along with his prime-time performance against Texas when he finished with 474 yards and 2 TDs.

Folks, that was against the Texas Longhorns. How much better can the competition get? He went to the Senior Bowl, he was a hot name and he was a player we thought could make the transition to the NFL.

Yet he watched on draft weekend as his name was never announced, and then, as our own Jack Bechta described Tuesday in his excellent post, Harrell looked at his phone, waiting for an offer as an undrafted free agent — only to see it sit there silently.

Instead, he got an invite to the Cleveland Browns’ mini-camp last weekend as a “try-out player.” The Browns said “no thanks” after three days watching him throw.

How could this happen? Let’s discuss it.

System Players

I’m a firm believer that the spread offense we see in the college game today is no different than the triple option was in the ‘80s and ‘90s when it comes to the NFL. The quarterbacks who run these systems are great college players, but that’s not what the NFL is looking for. It isn’t a knock on them, but it just doesn’t work at this level.

Take the first-round QBs this year, Matthew Stafford of Georgia and Mark Sanchez of USC. Their numbers can’t compare to Harrell’s when it comes to the 2008 season — yet they’re viewed as great NFL prospects because they can produce in an NFL system.

Harrell, on the other hand, is viewed as a spread offense QB who was never under center, never faced a “true” pass rush and only threw the ball to spots on the field — instead of a receiver — and those spots are always open.

It’s a phenomenal system for the college game that leads to wins. And that’s what Texas Tech head coach Mike Leach is paid to do, not get his players ready for the NFL. But those same players (including WR Michael Crabtree) are labeled as “system players.” They put up big numbers because they run an offensive system that caters to the college game. Look at Wes Welker, a guy who is dominating the pro game but went undrafted out of college.

Why? Because he was labeled as a system player and had to prove he was good enough to play in an NFL offense.

But what about West Virginia QB Pat White, who played in a spread attack? Well, White was drafted as an athlete, a player who can do multiple things on the football field at this level. Sure, he’ll get a look at QB, but he’s more valuable to the Miami Dolphins with the ball in his hands and open field in front of him. He’s a pure football player.

Harrell, conversely, is a pure spread QB.

You can argue with me all you want, but this is what NFL teams do — they find quarterbacks who can run a pro-style offense and step into throws with big arms, not QBs who benefit from a system that makes them great.

Is it fair? I don’t know, and the NFL doesn’t care. Teams want QBs who can produce at this level, not players who throw the ball 65 times from the shotgun in an offense that college defensive coordinators haven’t figured out yet.

This argument could go on forever, and it will pick up again next year when two QB hopefuls — Sam Bradford of Oklahoma and Tim Tebow of Florida — get ready to make the jump to the NFL.

Two more system players or two more NFL QBs? Now that’s something to debate.


Century Cane

Will do,been away for a while
Always glad to contribute

Hernandez works out of a leadoff double
0-0 going to the bottom of the 4th


csm, the CANESPACE nation is behind you and every other U affiliates who've gone away physically, but never spiritually because we're all still here and we kep them alive in our minds and hearts DAILY, hourly and minutely sometimes. Your spirits are low, but just like this CANE team, led by randy shannon, U and them ballin boyz will rise again, the team will conquer other teams, just like you need to conquer those vices you picked up along the way to try and fight the pain.

DOn't run from the pain run thru it like the CANES do the smoke, because it represents going through life not being able to see because having the confidence and faith in yourself and those around you that even though you can't see, you run full steam ahead because victory awaits U and thm on the otherside of that smoke!

The space is real, and roach77CANE, when the stars are aligning right, phil collins made the song just for Miami, "I can feel it, coming in the air tonight!


The Truth

Tebow will make one hellacious FB.


49ers QB roster as of yesterday

Nate Davis, Ball State, R (Fifth-round draft pick, No. 171)

Kirby Freeman, Baylor, R

Shaun Hill, Maryland, 8
Damon Huard, Washington, 13 *
Alex Smith, Utah, 5



DOn't run from the pain run thru it like the CANES do the smoke, because it represents going through life not being able to see because having the confidence and faith in yourself and those around you that even though you can't see, you run full steam ahead because victory awaits U and them on the otherside of that smoke!

Posted by: Calvin | May 08, 2009 at 08:18 PM

Now that is poetry in motion. That is the way U blog on The Space.

Calvin, U just got elected to the 2009 CSROH!

Century Cane

Cane shave the bases loaded with 2 outs in the 4th
Lawson at the plate

Century Cane

Lawson flies out to the track in right
0-0 going to the 5th

Chinese Punisher aka Cavaleer

"Mentality - Ahh the great myth. I am sick of reading people on here act like no other school can have players who have come from poor, under privaledged backgrounds who want to do their families right and act like a cocky mofo when doing it. I think we as fans consistently misjudge this me against the world mentality for something unique to Miami when all it is acting like a team (swagger was the unique thing we brought to it, but working hard is inherent in all those who want to succeed. A coach not a university breeds this. i.e. coker)"

Posted by: shwarma | May 08, 2009 at 04:43 PM


Shwarma, poverty and whatever "underprivileged" is supposed to mean HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MENTALITY THAT MADE MIAMI DOMINANT.

If poverty and being "underprivileged" was all it took we would've seen something like Miami way back at the turn of the century in the midwest, south and OH-PA.

You need to talk to Calvin about this point because he answered all my questions about what made those 1980s teams so different. It's deeper than you apparently think it is, and it has nothing to do with the university

And if you missed the NFL's dislike of the spread, something that was news to me, don't take it personally. I wasn't calling you out, just pointing it out.

And if you really think the country people "adapt to new technologies" more slowly than city folk, you really need to spend some time in the country. These days it ain't Kansas, as you yourself pointed out.

But all these distractions don't affect the appeal of WINNING.

If they did, the NY Yankees wouldn't have built an absurdly expensive new stadium.

To think that when I first arrived in NYC in 1993 and worked for the NY Post I did a little story on the first day tickets were on sale and NO ONE was at the stadium.


You know the answer.


Hakeem Nicks is the next Michael Irvin.

Irvin says if Nicks can't live up to the pressure... well that's just tough.

Giants first-round pick Hakeem Nicks grabs comparison to Michael Irvin

BY Ralph Vacchiano

Wednesday, May 6th 2009, 7:10 PM

There was already enough pressure on Hakeem Nicks, from the moment he was drafted by a team desperate for a No. 1 receiver to fill Plaxico Burress' shoes. The Giants even turned up the heat when they compared their first-rounder to Pro Bowler Anquan Boldin.

But Butch Davis, Nicks' coach at North Carolina, went even further, comparing him to Hall of Famer Michael Irvin. And if that's a lot for a 21-year-old receiver to deal with as a rookie . . . well, the real Irvin says, that's just tough.

"Pressure is good at this stage," Irvin told the Daily News last week. "You want a guy to feel like, 'I have to live up to him,' as opposed to 'I'm just me. Let me be me.' You want to live up to something, to standards that have been set . . . something where he says, 'I want to be this,' or 'I want to do that.' You want a guy to feel pressure to be great all the time."

By all accounts, Nicks does, which is why Davis - who was on the Dallas Cowboys staff from 1989-94 when Irvin was in his prime - wasn't afraid to make that comparison. He even said the 6-1, 210-pound Nicks has "as good a set of hands catching the ball as anybody I've ever been around." And he's been around receivers such as Irvin, Andre Johnson, Santana Moss and Reggie Wayne.

But the best part about Nicks isn't his hands, his production or his ability to make the tough catch. It's another Irvin-like trait - the ability to star in the big game.

"The thing that I liked about him is the bigger the game, it seemed like the better that he plays," Davis said. "The game he had in the bowl game, he was so geeked about wanting to play well. He knew it was a national audience. And how could you have played any better than he did in that game?"

"The bigger the game, the bigger the stage, the bigger the performance," added North Carolina receivers coach Charlie Williams. "He thrives in the spotlight."

Nicks had eight catches, 217 yards and three touchdowns in the Meineke Car Care Bowl in December, including a spectacular, one-handed, behind-the-back catch that became a YouTube sensation. It was probably the most notable performance for a player who caught 142 passes for 2,180 yards and 17 touchdowns over the last two seasons. But to his coaches, it wasn't necessarily his best.

"What I told everybody before the draft," Williams said, "was that some of his best catches were in practice."

That's where Davis first saw the similarities between Nicks and Irvin, when Nicks was just a freshman three years ago. And the comparisons have only gotten more obvious since.

"You don't want to put this burden on a kid coming into his rookie year, but a lot of his physical attributes are very similar to Michael Irvin," Davis said. "Hakeem is big, he's physical, he catches the ball over the middle, and he's got that ability to play physical when people are draped all over him as they're going to be in the National Football League."


Century Cane

0-0 going to the bottom of the 5th


Century...U have the call! Do your thing.

Century Cane

You got it.
Canes have been able to put at least 1 runner on every inning.
Just not getting the big hit tonight.
These last 6 games are huge in determining if they host a regional.

0-0 heading to the 6th


Great write up CaneSawMassacre

Good, good stuff


The best thing about Calvin's posts is the fire in his heart.

Two sentences into any of Cal's posts you know who the author is.

A hundred miles an hour without a pause for a breath, a comma, or an amen.

Calvin explains the how it is, why it is, better than anyone else


Century Cane

Hernandez continues to deal
0-0 going to the bottom of the 6th

Chinese Punisher aka Cavaleer

Thomas Sowell says he had ADD until he was about 12.

He says that his dad cured it for him behind the woodshed about every six months up until then.

Posted by: texascane | May 08, 2009 at 07:09 PM


There it is!!! J/K. haha

Truth, our entire pedagogical system is botched, and has been botched from the days when we started imitating the Prussian elementary model. Why do you think our word for primary education is GERMAN?? KINDERGARTEN.

School as it has been taught in America, is fundamentally boring, especially at the primary level, and it becomes worse and worse every year, whether the teachers are dedicated or not.

Two summers ago I taught tennis to pre-teen kids, first time tennis players. One of the little girl's was supposedly ADD, as her grandmother told me. But when it was time to get her focused on that tennis ball, she was the most attentive, ready and focused kid in the group. It's all HOW YOU TEACH, not what. That's the fundamental misunderstanding. And different people learn in different ways.

If we had intelligent people structuring our educational system they would spend the first sic months just observing children and learning HOW each kids learns.

In my job as a HR assessor for a large automobile manufacturer, we teach people activities they've never done before and in each case we give verbal, written and visual/action instructions. Then we let them perform the activity for practice then and only then do we test them. Simple huh?

IT AIN'T THE KIDS. It's the system of educating. And these kids who get labelled ADD and ADHD are just like the Parakeets that coal miners used to keep with them in the mine's to let them know if an explosion or a poisonous leak was happening.
Why?? Because the parakeet's would die long before the toxic levels of the fumes would kill the miners.

Our so-called educational system is the single most damaging factor in this country's demise. And the root of it is because it is fundamentally ANTI-MALE.

It rewards what boys don't do naturally. It punishes what boys do naturally. So that by the time a boy hits puberty, he doesn't know what the hell he's supposed to do or not do. That's why do many just rebel for no reason. That's also why so many men who didn't do well in school excel "in the real world." Athletics are the only saving grace for most of them but that still can't teach you what it means to be a man.

And this is coming from someone who did very well in school and went to an elite liberal arts college.

ALL OF IT IS FULL OF SHYT. Head games and BS, all because you want to get a good job.

Don't get me wrong, I had a ball throughout school, college included. But when I look back at what I really learned, what really taught me how to live and think, I didn't learn any of it in a classroom. I learned a few techniques, got some good information on history, economics, a couple of foreign languages. But even the writing style I had to un-learn because the academic style is fundamentally bad writing.

WTF is education then?? Unless you're going to school for something specific, like accounting, finance, computer science, engineering and such, it's BS.

The only reason it still has a place of respect is because nothing has come along to expose how botched it is. Montessori doesn't count.

But don't believe me. Look at the statistics, especially the statistics for American men. Everything becomes worse with the baby-boomer generation, which was the first generation of Americans to undergo mandatory public schooling. Homicide and suicide rates all increase. Divorce rates increase. Age of marriage increases. Incarceration rates all increase. Even the dam voting participation DECREASES. To say nothing of this homo shyt.

You think it's a coincidence??

Then ask yourself what single factor of American life changed from the Depression/WW-II generation to the Baby Boomer generation?? What one thing that cuts across all superficial lines, as well as income and educational levels??

It took me 7 years to figure this out. haha
But the thought was sparked by observing the differences between my paternal grandfather and uncles and their sons.

But I'm not the only one who's seen the trend. Even that anti-American rag Newsweek recently ran a cover story called, "Why our boys are struggling in school."


Of course they didn't come to the conclusions I've come to because that's not there goal.

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